The Pope and Irony
There have been a plethora of posts around the blogosphere so I don’t plan on making too many comments about the Pope’s comments about Islam… well the Pope’s quoting of someone else’s comments on Islam.
Let me see if I have it right though. The Pope implies that Muslims are violent. In response to this obvious slander, Muslims become violent. Does anyone else find this ironic? The Pope the had to apologize for being correct?
Where are the moderate Muslims (that people tell me exist) that denounce this behavior (and please feel free to let me know where they are)? Moderate Muslims should be condemning this behavior (not to mention the behavior of Islamic terrorists). They should be forming clubs or societies or something that get together and speak out agaist the nonsense that is the extreme, reactionary Muslims that we have all grown to loathe and despise.
[Addendum I] For a more involved look at this, head to Parableman‘s post Benedict XVI and Islam.
[Addendum II] From the AsiaNews.it article More calls for dialogue in a Muslim world angered by Pope (Thanks to Kristin for the link!):
“the reaction of radical Islamists to the pope’s speech justifies claims that Islam is a religion of violence. But if we carefully read the speech by Pope Benedict XVI, we can see that the dialogue between cultures as well as religions will be difficult.”
Hasyim Muzadi, chairman of Indonesia’s largest Islamic association Nadhlatul Ulama, said that Muslims must accept Pope Benedict XVI’s “apology” for offending Muslims, saying it was “an obligation” according to Islamic teachings.
The Jakarta Post reports that for Hasyim Benedict XVI’s regrets were “enough” and that any further resentment on the part of Muslims would only justify the Pope’s claims. “If the rage continues, perhaps what the pope said is true,” it said.
And this:
As for Benedict characterising jihad as an insult to Reason, Muslims might have responded by asking the Pope how much rationality is there in a God that sends his son to die on a cross or in a belief that during mass bread and wine can really be turned into the flesh and blood of his dead and risen son.
Ouch. Indeed, the Pope should realize that the Christian faith is not contingent on and limited to reason and that many aspects of the faith are not reasonable, but the writer of the article should also recognize that science and reason emerged because of the ideologies and drive of Christians who wanted to know more about the world that God placed us.
This was my immediate thought. I find it a little strange that no one seems to be noticing this despite all their other criticisms.
It’s actually pretty clear from the context that the pope wasn’t endorsing those elements of the speech anyway. He was endorsing only the argument that God should be viewed as rational. He even indicates in several places that he finds the language he’s quoting to be a bit over the top (though some of the translations mask that). But his apology makes it absolutely clear that he’d never intended to endorse the bits that he was quoting for historical accuracy as to the medieval debate that weren’t relevant to his overall point. I think he deserves an apology.
Well,
What I normally do is to give a upfront 50% off what the media publishes. Ever thought that the moderate Muslims will never get publicity because the media never thrive on ‘moderate’ demonstrations?
“I find it a little strange that no one seems to be noticing this despite all their other criticisms.” I agree! It seems they are just proving the original statement…
Heh, conrade, I actually place very little stock in the mainstream media. And I have no doubt that they definitely play a part in the lack of apparent moderates. That being said, most of my information (for good or bad) comes from browsing various blogs and usually they point to pretty good articles and stories (or other bloggers) and moderate Muslims don’t seem to pop up there much either. So it is hard to get a read on it, I would love to hear from some moderate Muslims!
Moderate or not… no matter what anybody says Islam is hardly a peaceful religion.
http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=7253
There’s a couple moderate quotes in there.
It sure appears that way, eh Carmel?
Thanks for the link Kristin!
Another thing I wanted to point out here is that while the media might only show the extremists and leave the moderate out, there is still a disturbing amout of prominent figures within Islam that do not denounce these types of actions. Where are the moderate “prominent figures”?
Well, Islam says that Mohammed’s word is to be followed and he was pretty much flawless. Mohammed tells his followers that jihad is approved by God.
According to the Qu’ran and according to Islam’s leaders a way to heaven is to kill an infidel. Well, ask who an infidel is and you’ll find out that an infidel is anyone who isn’t a Muslim.
The Pope needs sensitivity training. If you are trying to make peace with somebody, you don’t piss them off on purpose. He had to know this would start a chain of violence. Yes, there is irony attached, but sometimes keeping your mouth shut is golden; the Pope needs to learn this unless he wants to start another Holy War like the ones the Catholic faith started in the past.6
I find it interesting that when people (like the Pope) say things that liberals disagree with they are outraged and call for apologies and for the suppression of whatever that persion (like the Pope) said… but when someone supposedly tries to suppress a liber, all hell breaks lose.
Pope trying to make peace? Is that the Pope goal? Why do people find it shocking that the leader of the Catholic faith might say something against another religion? They are different religions, they inherently do not agree, OF COURSE the Pope is going to say things against Islam. People never seem to be surprised when Muslims say naughty things about Christians but we could never tell them “please don’t say those things” because that would be “intolerant” of us.
If the Pope’s words somehow managed to spark another Holy War with the Muslims, it would be their fault. If Christians started a Holy War every time a Muslim said something anti-Christian there would be war EVERYWHERE and ALL THE TIME.
Hey Matt,
You are absolutely right about the Muslims saying bad things about other religions. They think theirs is the only legitimate religion. All the major religions think that they are the only way to go, including of course, Catholics. I am not condoning the Muslim’s behavior, but I don’t think that the Pope should participate in the same activities. Yes, it is the Pope’s job to make peace (at least one of his jobs, at least not to start a war). What if a leader of a major religion fostered the belief that we all have religious freedom and aren’t required to be of a certain faith to be a good person - would it be a radical idea if the Pope were the one who started this? I guess it would, because then the Catholic religion would lose control over its congregants since they wouldn’t be “going to hell” if they weren’t Catholics.
But I digress.
Thanks for you comments. It’s important to have an open forum on these issues, even if name calling like “left leaning” and “liberal” has to enter the picture.
The difference is that Catholic and Christians (as well as other religions) are tolerant. They don’t threaten people if they don’t follow their religion, they don’t kill people that don’t follow their religion. They don’t freak out when someone says something bad about their religion.
But tolerance can only go so far, and should only go so far. If you are so tolerant that you give up your beliefs, then what is the point? I am tolerant of Muslims and respect their practice of their religion, but as soon as they try and force that upon me, I am not so tolerant any more. Similarily, I do not expect anyone to be tolerant of me if I tried to force someone else to believe what I do.
The Pope doesn’t participate in the same activities. He talks. He preaches. He leads his people, NOT people of other faiths (including me).
Most religious leaders do say we have religious freedoms (well not all…). Nor do most religious leaders say we are required to be of a certain faith (oh.. except for that one again). Nor do most religions say you have to be of a particular faith to be a “good person” (humm…). What you are describing is actually quite common in Christianity and the polar opposite of Islam. One thing that I do need to point out here is that the Christian faith can so those things because being a “good person” is not what Christianity, or even Catholocism is all about. Of course Christians want other people to become Christians, nothing would make us happier, but we also will tolerate those that don’t want to because that is their free will.
Well I can’t speak for Catholics on this point, but I know that as a Christian, I have never made those claims of people. I am perfectly fine with seeing people of other faiths as “good people”, that doesn’t mean I will change my beliefs for them though. And I think that is a fairly weak argument against the Catholic faith to say that they keep control because they prevent their followers from going to Hell.
I am sorry that you felt that was name calling. I have called my self “right leaning” and “conservative” on numerous occasions. Should I just have said “democrat”? If you read other posts you will see that my arguments with people of different beliefs than me I am never rude or unkind, just vehemently opposed to some viewpoints. But being vehemently opposed doesn’t mean I am rude. I am qutie in favor of open discourse.
Matt, there is again definite truth in many of the things you say. I am an ex-Catholic myself, I have gone through all the sacraments, etc. And yes, I was trained that if I strayed from the Catholic religion I would “go to hell”. I was told to pity Jews because they are all “going to hell.” This is the reason for the bad taste I have for the Catholic religion - I have lived it and left it behind. I respect all of your ideas, but I still feel that hitting the hornet’s nest with a stick is unnecessary. I know, you don’t agree, and yes the Muslims are ultrasensitive. This is probably the reason those moderate Muslims are not heard very often, they are afraid for their lives.
Anyway, I have enjoyed this conversation. I don’t consider you rude. Can we be friends???
That is really rough I think. And a completely understandable position to take in the circumstances. The Catholic stance on many issues, including the adherence of some of their members to “salvation through the Church only” has kept me from their denomination. But that doesn’t mean that Christianity is wrong… and fortuantely Christianity doesn’t force anyone into believing that we are right… even if we are.
Most of the time I would actually agree with that, but sometimes it is necessary to find out who the hornets are.
I have a feeling you are probably right and that is a really sad thing.
I am glad you have enjoyed it, I have as well. Open dialogue and exchanging of ideas is always a good thing. I consider any blogger that is willing to intelligently discuss things a friend.
As a fellow Matt Jones (but from Montreal), I feel the need to point out a few discrepencies in your argument.
1) Have you ever met a Muslim? Try meeting one and conducting a simple test. Say something like, “Despite not being personally acquainted with you or any of your kind, or having been to any countries your people inhabit, or reading a single book about your history, I have determined that your people (numbering 1.8 billion) are singularly ignorant, unreasonable and violent.”
2) Has a Muslim ever tried to “force” his/her religion on you?
Personally I have never had a religion “forced” on me. I did, however, grow up under my mother’s Catholic guise, went through a religious education system and was expected to go to church on Sunday. That may not equal coersion, but it’s closer to manipulating my opinion to anything ever attempted by a Muslim. But even historically, your analogy doesn’t hold up.
It is well known that up to the 16th century, when the Ottoman Empire ruled half of the then-known world, including Christian Greece and Eastern Europe, Christians and Jews were not only allowed to practice their religion openly, but were able to rise to the hightest ranks of government administration. The only discrimination was that they were forced to pay a special tax for non-Muslims.
Conversely, 16th Catholic Spain purged itself of Islam in a wave of forced conversions, killings and book-burning, Protestant England persecuted Catholics, Orthodox Russia persecuted Jews, etc. You would do well to find a better light to boast the superiority of your religion in.
3) Muslim Extremism
There is, of course, a political undertone to the current protests.
It’s not only Muslims who object to the Pope’s fatuous statements about Islam; white Canadian atheists can have the same reaction. The difference is that I’m not part of a group whose countries are being invaded by foreign armies, whose appearance arouses suspicions of terrorist sympathies, and I don’t know what it’s like to have people of other faiths accuse my religion of being violent and irrational without looking at their own.
Islamophobia is the last acceptable form of racism in the West. Be careful what you say, not because of who you might offend, but because you might not realize what you are perpetuating.
Generalizations aren’t necessarily discrepencies, they are generalizations. Obviously my statements do not apply to all Muslims.
Yes, I have met Muslims, yes I have read about their people and history. Obviously the statements do not apply to all.
Nope. Muslims in America (and Canada) do react differently than those of the Middle East (notice I have not even mentioned Muslims of Indonesia which has the largest population of Muslims). Although I still haven’t heard from many Muslims here speaking out against the violent actions of their brothers and sisters in the faith.
How do you figure that? Historically Muslims are the ones that spread the faith by the sword.
If you really think this is the only form of discrimination, you might need to do some more reading.
I am not saying Christianity is without blemish, obviously that is not the case. But comparatively, Christianity is more about peace than the supposed “Religion of Peace” is.
Of course they can. When was the last time white Canadian (or American) atheists were outraged against statements against Christianity?
Except that most of the violent reaction to the Pope was not from Iraq. If they don’t want people of other faiths (and those without faith) to accuse their reilgion of being violent and irrational, they shouldn’t act that way (and especially shouldn’t act that way in response to such statements, just proving their point). I often look at my own religon. My religion is not a violent one. Most of recent history has shown that to be the case even in the midst of oppression. And I would definitely not say Christianity is never irrational, of course it is, that is often a big part of faith. And that isn’t a bad thing.
Islamophobia is often warranted when they threaten people. Am I afraid of Muslims in my community? Of course not. Iam perfectly fine chatting with them and befriending them… they are not trying to kill me. And Islam isn’t a race, it isn’t racism. Christianity has taken much for of a beating than Islam has. It is prefectly fine today for people to bash Christians, but as soon as someone say something against a Muslim all hell breaks loose. So who is really being discriminated against?